Infinite Crisis #4

[Thom Young]

Originally Posted by seric26

Which would make Superman a liar, something he's not presented as being in this series. He and crazy Superboy-Prime are both being hoodwinked by evil Alexander L. I hate to criticize Jiminez, but I think he gravely overplayed that scene without really making sense of what it meant.

Superman-2 shouldn't have been downcast in shame, he should have been like "yes, they're both good, but that's not the point" or some other bluster.

Yes, I agree. This could be Jiminez's fault--but that still leaves the problem of why Batman even asked the question to begin with.

[seric26]

This series (using the same basic plot) would have been so much better with Morrison writing and Rags Morales illustrating.

Well, he's busy on 7S, which has got to be for the best. It's so much more subtle.

This series (using the same basic plot) would have been so much better with Gardner Fox writing and Gil Kane illustrating (and Julius Schwartz editing, of course).

Heh.

Or how about Kurt B., someone who does his homework and loves doing it?

The whole thing is reaching for the grandeur of Avengers/JLA, and failing due to errors and brutality.

[Jim Kingman]

Thom, I just can't answer all this science I don't understand. I just thought it was cool that a very powerful Superboy was out and about restructuring an entire universe. As to Donna and her merry men, I was sorry that after her extended recruitment drive that played out over so many other titles they got all the way out there and weren't able to change a dang thing. What are they gonna do now? Punch Alex's arms?

I do think Gardner Fox, John Broome, and Julius Schwartz would have done a tighter job plotting Infinite Crisis. However, I'm still loving the daylights out of IC. For me personally, it's been a lot of fun.

Jim Kingman

[Thom Young]

Originally Posted by Jim Kingman

Thom, I just can't answer all this science I don't understand.

What science? That's sort of my point. What science?

Is it too much to ask that someone writing space opera have a basic understanding of cosmology? Of course, the omission of "Polaris Galaxy" might actually indicate that Johns has realized the error of that nomenclature.

The other error (the shift in space sector designation) is either Johns not looking back to see what he called it in issue #3 or Johns not researching DC history to see how John Broome handled it 40 years ago.

[Thom Young]

Originally Posted by seric26

Or how about Kurt B., someone who does his homework and loves doing it?

Yeah, him too.

[Jim Kingman]

Okay, okay, I meant "all that basic understanding of cosmology" that I don't understand. How the heck can I concentrate when there's this severemag ad of a beautiful woman pulling back the bottom of her bikini to my left? Sheesh!

Jim Kingman

[Thom Young]

"Politics" by William Butler Yeats

"In our time the destiny of man presents its meanings in
political terms" -- Thomas Mann

How can I, that girl standing there,
My attention fix
On Roman or on Russian
Or on Spanish politics?
Yet here's a travelled man that knows
What he talks about,
And there's a politician
That has read and thought,
And maybe what they say is true
Of war and war's alarms,
But O that I were young again
And held her in my arms!

[Dave Hearn]

Originally Posted by Jim Kingman

I read Superman #22 the other day, the one in which the Man of Steel executes the three villainous Kryptonians from the Time Trapper's pocket universe. After years of the Silver Age Superman vehemently stating he would never take a life (as opposed to the Golden Age Superman, who was hurling villains to their deaths a few times early in his career), I believe Byrne wanted to take the new version of Supey in a different direction and have him in many respects justifiably be judge, jury and executioner of the murderous trio. Funny, but it appears as if Superman was goaded by Zod into having no choice in the matter. Zod was convinced he would find a way to restore their powers after Superman had stripped them of all powers by exposing them to gold kryptonite. It was always my understanding that there was no way a kryptonian could reclaim his or her powers after being exposed to gold k. So why Superman just didn't imprison them for life is a valid question. I think Bryne just wanted to have a weighty decision for Superman to think on for the rest of his life.

And after that controversial story, Byrne was gone, and Superman soon exiled himself into space.

Jim Kingman

I can see the allure of Superman's mortal dilemma. I also see the fascination in taking the Man of Steel to uncharted territory. However, as the caretaker of a 50+ (at the time) year old American Icon, the choice was, I feel, irresponsible. Imagine the eight year old kid reading Superman for the first time with issue #22. Superman kills. Superman isn't smart enough to defeat his enemy without killing.

That isn't Superman.

Whoever was the editor at the time should have said, "Great idea, John but we just can't do it. Solve the problem a different way." Of course, I'm indulging in a form of "back-seat driving" that is so common among comic fans today. I just can't help myself.

It was still a great story, though. Just disappointing. The stories that came from it; Matrix, Gangbuster, Exile, the Krypton Man were also wonderful (my Silver Age). So, I suppose I'm complaining about nothing.

On a different subject, Jim, for all of my complaining, I'm still enjoying Infinite Crisis. I read #4 twice yesterday. I'm still geeked out about it.

-Dave

[Thom Young]

Originally Posted by dave_hearn

I can see the allure of Superman's mortal dilemma. I also see the fascination in taking the Man of Steel to uncharted territory. However, as the caretaker of a 50+ (at the time) year old American Icon, the choice was, I feel, irresponsible. Imagine the eight year old kid reading Superman for the first time with issue #22. Superman kills. Superman isn't smart enough to defeat his enemy without killing.

That isn't Superman.

It also doesn't sound like John Byrne. Very strange.

[Jim Thompson]

The whole thing is reaching for the grandeur of Avengers/JLA, and failing due to errors and brutality.

The longer IC goes on, the more I am forced to agree with this.

First off, Avengers/JLA was much, much better than almost anything put out over the past 10 years, at least as far as a superhero yarn is concerned.

Secondly, the level of violence in IC seems unnecessary. While on the one hand, I think it does give one an idea of just how powerful these characters are, I also have to agree with Ray in that the heroes should have been able to resolve the situation before it got to that point.

IC mayturn into a magnificent failure.