Ray's Norman Osborn/Mephisto theory (Avengers: The Initiative #29 review)

Dave Wallace · #1 11-02-2009, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

What if Brand New Day actually wasn't a deal between Spidey and Mephisto but Mephisto and Norman Osborn?

Suddenly, every stupid thing the Powers at Marvel have done start to make sense. Norman Osborn coming back from the dead, his giving Gwen Stacy the Green Goblin, the inane Civil War, the Skrull thing, Spidey stupidly throwing away his marriage to MJ and Osborn's ascension to power, which finally puts the villain in a position to ultimately humiliate and kill Spider-Man, all fall into place in a grandiose masterpiece that could only be designed by a malicious cosmic entity like Mephisto.

If Mephisto and Norman truly are behind the whole nightmarish awfulness that the Powers at Marvel inflicted on its readers then Marvel could have heroes other than the Agents of Atlas again. Even a douche like Iron Man could resurface as a champion if he made the connection that Mephisto rewrote the timestream. If Iron Man recognized that Mephisto tainted him and turned him into a thrall, if he warred against that enslavement, Iron Man would be palatable once more. This would also pave the way for the new "Heroic Age" mentioned by Eternity to Hank Pym in an image floating around the internet.

I actually quite like that theory. It'd certainly make more sense than what we saw in "One More Day", and would give slightly more justification for Osborn's sudden rise to power (although it still wouldn't improve Secret Invasion and Civil War, and wouldn't help to make Norman's resurrection make any more sense - but I guess you can't win them all).

Also, Mephisto recently showed up at the end of the most recent issue of Dark Avengers, which could be a hint that there's a stronger connection between him and Osborn than we realised.

Still, I don't see it happening. It'd pretty much invalidate the last couple of years of Amazing Spider-Man (and would at the very least cause continuity problems between that book and the rest of the Marvel Universe) and would essentially acknowledge that the new direction that they've been foisting on Spider-Man fans for the last 65 issues was a failure. If anything, the backlash over that could be even worse than the backlash over "One More Day" itself.

Oh, and incidentally, I think that that image of Hank Pym and Eternity that you mentioned is from the most recent issue of Mighty Avengers.

Thom Young · #2 11-02-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Wallace

I actually quite like that theory.

Yes, I think that's a great theory. I love it.

Of course, it probably won't be used by Marvel, but it would make me enjoy what's been happening in the Marvel Universe more than I currently do--though I am mostly an outsider looking in.

I still don't like how miniseries and one-shots that I would otherwise be interested in reading because I like the characters--such as Star Lord--are always connected to these big events that I have no interest in reading (but that's another issue entirely).

Paul Brian McCoy · #3 11-02-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Young

Yes, I think that's a great theory. I love it.

Of course, it probably won't be used by Marvel, but it would make me enjoy what's been happening in the Marvel Universe more than I currently do--though I am mostly an outsider looking in.

I still don't like how miniseries and one-shots that I would otherwise be interested in reading because I like the characters--such as Star Lord--are always connected to these big events that I have no interest in reading (but that's another issue entirely).

Well, the old characters like Star Lord who show up in DnA's space tediousness, really only use the names and basic ideas of the original characters. You're not missing anything if you're looking for respect for or continuation of the original characters.

Paul Brian McCoy · #4 11-02-2009, 12:42 PM

Even after all this time, I still have a hard time believing that an adult reader would rather have a character be tainted by the fake Devil, without their knowledge, into doing unsavory things and then have them magically forgiven, than to have the character make bad choices because they believe they're doing the right thing at the moment and then try to redeem themselves when they realize their mistakes?

Ridiculous.

Thom Young · #5 11-02-2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Brian McCoy

Well, the old characters like Star Lord who show up in DnA's space tediousness, really only use the names and basic ideas of the original characters. You're not missing anything if you're looking for respect for or continuation of the original characters.

Well, that's good to know because I am thinking of the Steve Englehart character who went by that name.

Paul Brian McCoy · #6 11-02-2009, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Young

Well, that's good to know because I am thinking of the Steve Englehart character who went by that name.

As was I.

Thom Young · #7 11-02-2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Brian McCoy

Even after all this time, I still have a hard time believing that an adult reader would rather have a character be tainted by the fake Devil. . . .

Well, Mephisto is hardly the "fake devil." I mean he did appear in Marlowe's Faustus as Mephastophilis, and in Goethe's Faust and Mann's Doktor Faustus as Mephistopheles.

Still, I agree with you in terms of motivations for characters based in verisimilitude (which, of course, is different from realism).

However, since these stories aren't realistic, I have no problem with them having verisimilitude that is associated to a world in which exist such things as demons and devils, Tuetonic gods, and boys getting powers from radioactive spiders.

I love the Faust stories, and I don't have a problem with Mephistopholes visiting the non-cosmic-based Peter Parker since Dr. Faustus was not always depicted as a man in pursuit of the Power Cosmic in the variations of his story.

There's also the story of Robert Johnson making a pact with a devil to become the master bluesman that he was--which then gets repeated with Jimmy Page doing the same thing to become a virtuoso guitar player.

Of course, we all know about the Devil Going Down to Georgia.

I enjoy these types of tales even though they aren't a reflection of my own view of the universe.

Paul Brian McCoy · #8 11-02-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Young

Well, Mephisto is hardly the "fake devil." I mean he did appear in Marlowe's Faustus as Mephastophilis, and in Goethe's Faust and Mann's Doktor Faustus as Mephistopheles.

Still, I agree with you in terms of motivations for characters based in verisimilitude (which, of course, is different from realism).

However, since these stories aren't realistic, I have no problem with them having verisimilitude that is associated to a world in which exist such things as demons and devils, Tuetonic gods, and boys getting powers from radioactive spiders.

I love the Faust stories, and I don't have a problem with Mephistopholes visiting the non-cosmic-based Peter Parker since Dr. Faustus was not always depicted as a man in pursuit of the Power Cosmic in the variations of his story.

There's also the story of Robert Johnson making a pact with a devil to become the master bluesman that he was--which then gets repeated with Jimmy Page doing the same thing to become a virtuoso guitar player.

Of course, we all know about the Devil Going Down to Georgia.

I enjoy these types of tales even though they aren't a reflection of my own view of the universe.

I'm not talking about the Spider-Man story, though. I'm talking about only being able to see Iron Man redeemed if he was tricked by the fake Devil (Mephisto was introduced to the Marvel U, not as Mephistopheles, but as a stand-in for the Devil before eventually revealing him to be/retconning him into a Demonic figure who sometimes represents himself as Satan to his victims), rather than seeing Tony Stark as a man who made bad choices for what he thought were good reasons, and who has now spent almost a year trying to make things right and redeem himself.